"And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. I view these gifts largely to be the result of mortal Denver Carlos Snuffer Jr. is a Utah lawyer, an author of Restorationist devotional books, a lecturer, a speculative theologian, and claims to be a "revelator to fellowships of the remnants movement," a spiritual movement in schism with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). We aren't taught "Multiple Mortal Probation" in the Church because it is not true. I started to realize that multiple probations is one of the big themes in the scriptures. Adam-God can then be seen as based on JS' teachings and the endowment, with a simple fundamental misunderstanding on the identity of Micheal in the Godhead. Multiple Mortal Probations Article - Page 11 - LDS Freedom Forum What this may help to resolve is the issue that so many that have lived on this planet get no inkling of Christ and His gospel, and yet, we are told, faith in Christ and acceptance of his gospel are essential. we are saviors in a derived sense in which we preach the gospel. were transfigured before him. Choose one innovative idea the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has announced in the last 10 years. Many people, including my children, were hurt in the process, all because I was leaning on his spiritual gifts that turned out to be clouded with false doctrine. A looser neoPlatonism is more defensible both because it actually was in pretty widespread belief but also because we can trace phraseology from actual neoplatonic translations of the early 19th century. I thought it was supposed to be turtles all the way down? I love Them with all my heart and desire to serve them forever. Amazing, some of the stuff they came up with. Having experienced the intense glory of Gods Mormons Believe that Christ, Heavenly Father, and the Holy Ghost are Separate Beings. I love how Heavenly Fathers plan for his children is so loving and allows us to learn and grow in our own way and at our own pace. 2.3M+ acres, 1 in every ~550 acres of private land. See 1 Corinthians 15:40-44. Ive had some of those same thoughts. you can express so beautifully what my heart feels, and yet, I lack in ability to express myself! What follows is a thesis on the controversial doctrine from the 19th century referred to as multiple mortal probations, which fell out of favor along with Adam-God. We remembering reading that Joseph Smith knew so much more than he could tell because of disbelief and anger from others. When I first heard of it, it made perfect sense to me and was exhilarating to my soul. That is there is a certain form that Elijah participates in as part of being a person. D&C 132:22-25 can easily be interpreted that way: 22For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. and so I can testify that the doctrine of multiple probations is true doctrine. But Icanlook upon thee in the natural For example, in 1860, Orson Pratt wrote, "I heard brother Young say that Jesus had a body offlesh and bones, before he came (to earth and) he was born of the Virgin Mary, it was so contrary to every revelation given." I always look forward to your writings and know you speak truth. Many members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in my belief are afraid of these lost doctrines especially when they are exposed to it from news agencies that are trying to (in my opinion) to make people fear that if it doesnt come directly from the president or prophet of the church then we are being led away by false prophets. Have We Placed Our Hopes in the Arm of Flesh? Some are asking why this doctrine is necessary. If youve not yet read Angie Fenimores book Beyond the Darkness, I highly recommend it. mistake in my mind as to who the authors of the two variations are. The pursuit of the souls perfection seems somehow lighter, brighter, and more assuredly attainable. to inherit the same glory, the same power and the same exaltation, until you ascend the throne of eternal power the same as those who are gone before. However we have to then deal with the problem of Joseph being well versed on such matters yet somehow not getting the whole point of these texts. thousands) of people I have personally heard from in emails, within the LDS They witness to the same insights I have also had on the matter. The standard version of the sermon can be easily interpreted in this fashion. Jenimarie, I love your experience and witness. MARIA, Your email address will not be published. Wow. Thanks for sharing! I was always looked at with the eyes of (Oh Brother). 9 Things You Didn't Know About the FLDS Church - ABC News Unfortunately, the divine version of the doctrine has not, and may not soon receive the proper attention and audience it deserves. When I first heard this doctrine I felt a rush come over me that is hard to understand and explain. It's my guess that JS believed that heirs of the Celestial Kingdom would not only serve as Christs, but first they would serve as Holy Ghosts. We welcome comments of all kinds on this blog and feel that people should be free to debate and discuss the topics in accordance with their personal views, so long as it is done in a courteous and respectful manner. By One of the purposes of this book is to outline basic doctrines and explain how missionaries should teach them. The more I hear the more I learn from you and Julie!!! Yet they lived on the earth at the beginning when it was nearly still a paradise, and they lived to almost 1000 years before dying. I only wish that I could have been here more than two times. Big Florida development project likely worth $40-80B in 30-60 years. It is grasped in a such a powerful symbol the baptism. Exactly Geri! I can choose to end my learning and education then or I have the agency to continue onto college and graduate school. In the years since my witness of the Doctrine of Multiple Probations has increased considerably, I embrace it with eagerness. In my experience the most important point of the discussion here, which I believe to be among earnest seekers of truth, is being lightly treated by those on this forum but clearly illustrated in your comment. As I am learning and beginning to understand more of multiple probations, eternal progression, ascension and condescension, I am seeing a much larger picture in the eternal realm of learning and progression. Thank you for visiting and commenting Anna. Or a more default reading that doesn't inject as much into the text is simply those who live in a telestial way get rewarded with the same. Denver Snuffer Jr. - Wikipedia a new area shows as that there has to be also an end of another time also a wording of that multiple times.. or multiple probations.. How does this concept coexist with the idea of eternal families? Thanks for sharing. With those multiple witnesses I could no longer question or deny what the Savior hadtold me. Eric, I continue to find supporting evidence in scripture and temple ordinances. Ill just simply say that time and space in the eternities is measured differently than here in the telestial world and all things are possible. doctrine has been turned into something very different than what has been made Peace, enlightenment, and hope are wonderful gifts. But allow me to tell you you may expect an eternity of cats, that have not yet escaped from the bag " BRIGHAM YOUNG, 1853. He showed us the way how to ascend. It makes wonderful sense when you consider how merciful and how loving our Savior Jesus Christ is especially when we are gifted with agency both pre and post mortality. despite my human weakness. their state became a state of probation, 2 Ne. And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place [the telestial kingdom where they now live], to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.". He trys to plant these seeds of doubt in my heart mind and spirit..all this does is make me feel closer to my Saviour , the early members of the church in Our Saviors time as well as in Joseph Smiths time , and closer to Joseph Smith and the pure doctrines that he was shown and had and could not share yet, and I am humbled, oh so very humbled to have been trusted with this great knowledge and the peace that it brings to my soul and my spirit and the hope it gives me for my family and my in active children .. to know that I chose in my own personal plan to have this opposition in my life in these last days for my own progression throughout the eternities and I know that that is the same for many of us who believe in this doctrine of multiple probation, may we all be strong enough to stand in and on these truths of further light and knowledge. I can testify if one puts their effort into their relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus first, (who are one God) And accept the Saviors Atonement by putting the effort into repenting and forgiving. By . Thanks! Joseph well understood multiple probation, but to openly teach it would have meant major upheaval and further loss of members. I am a very simple man, not elequent in speech, but my witness of the Truth if it is very strong and it is deep and brings much peace to my heart. I am so grateful that we have the privilege now of hearing about this and learning more about the mysteries of God. I hold the knowledge sacred, personal to my own covenant Heavenly Father is very loving too help them through their next probation. The Banned topics: It is the explanation for why some of those I know and love myself that this doctrine is in fact, not necessary to know for my salvation, I am he. "And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. Lori Vallow Daybell's older sister became the latest family member to testify against her sibling at the "doomsday cult" mom's ongoing murder trial in the 2019 slayings of her two children. Further because the arguments depend upon misreadings and often lack explicit texts its pretty circumstantial arguments at their strongest. I believe with all my heart in the Ninth Article of Faith that God will yet reveal many great and important truths pertaining to the Kingdom of God. My friend Julie and I have discussed this doctrine openly on podcasts, and I have written about it on my personal blog. The only doctrine that Julie specifically mentions her stake president having a problem with is "multiple probations," also called multiple mortal probations. But what is meant spiritually can be read in a physical way too. Although Sister Rowe is an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, her book is not endorsed by the Church and should not be recommended to students or used as a resource in teaching them. In words borrowed of the symbol of the baptism we will lay down our old body to receive a new one. I believe that I am a child of a God, a child of a loving Heavenly Father and Mother with a divine heritage. I love converts, and you have reminded me that the convert enthusiasm for new truth should never die in our hearts, like Nephis song of redeeming love, and if it does die, then we have indeed stopped growing! Hallelujah! There are stages before and stages after, and one may indeed move in the cyclic spiral, but not in repetition and not in a circle. I believe even to the point that if I see an extra dark effort to oppose something then it must be very significant. Not sure if that group is still active anymore. Others feel if it were 44 Wherefore, he saves ALL EXCEPT THEMthey shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment. You can learn more about it here . Im glad you feel that way Kendall. Thank you for your wonderful expositions on such a beautiful and hidden part of the plan. It taught me that accepting such information and experiences with out, knowing for my self (James 1:5) was and is a danger zone for me to be in. ", More significantly, JS' King Follett Sermon suggests that, after the resurrection, each heir to Godhood will eventually serve as a Christ in a mortal probation. true, it should only come through certain lines of authority. Thanks for sharing this interesting history. Receive ye, therefore, my law. Erika, these are great questions. on several counts: On a side note, I tried to present and explain it to my husband and the first thing he said was if it is true, then why would we even need a Savior? Its like the chorus which follows the verse, giving the song power and unity. When I first heard of this I had some doubts, but as I read your words they ring true to my soul and it feels right. He had enough problems with plural marriage and the law of Consecration. What he explained can be understood as a spiritual path that one has to walk the path of baptism back home to heavenly father. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. Cristina Rosetti says there are groups of Mormon fundamentalists who believe in multiple probations, living several lives to reach exaltation. Receive ye, therefore, my law" (D&C 132:24, see vs. 22-25). The thrill is gone. The new day starts at a moment no one can see very much (its a kind of a hope). Whether or Not the LDS Church Could Fall into Apostasy; . James J. Strang - Mormonism, The Mormon Church, Beliefs, & Religion The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints official stance on multiple mortal probations (similar to reincarnation) is that is the doctrine of the devil. . I can seeJoseph Smith easily deriving reincarnation from several passages in the New Testament. I learned long ago to stay quiet in Sunday school. As for multiple lives and multiple mortal experiences, Joseph and the early saints were getting pretty creative and speculative by Nauvoo. Email from me is very sparse. I thank you and all of those who are trying to teach about Multiple Probation. Thank you so much for sharing your story! That is so very sad but I am thankful for that. But both Chad and Rowe have taught that people can essentially. That was a Wow moment! The thought that there could be no progression after judgment felt to contrast Even that though is pretty vague and could easily be taken in terms ofAlma 42:25. Having been so moved upon in the process of discovery, my friend Greg and I compiled a book called Multiple Probations which is a compilation of interesting history, supportive scriptures, and informative quotes from early authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That one would be tempted to say this life is just too hard. We and our partners store and/or access information on a device, such as cookies and process personal data, such as unique identifiers and standard information sent by a device for personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, and audience insights, as well as to develop and improve products. And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place [the telestial kingdom where they now live], to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.". The more I know the more I am constrained to announce The Glory of God and my own unworthiness before He Who Is Mighty To Save. I have followed the council of James, that if there are any among us who lack wisdom, that we should ask of God who gives to all men liberally (James 1:5). His response changed my eternal perspective forever when the voice of the Lord spoke to me and said I Am not in the business of destroying my children, nor are they ever lost to me for they are mine. Then I saw a scripture pop into my mind which, when I read, took on a whole new meaning and suddenly restored the hope to me that the words the Lord gave to me were not only true, they are openly witnessed in our own scriptures. clarity to the many dreams, visions, memories, and Deja vu experiences that Just think of the fun rides in life one could take though Ken! Like Lehi who partook of the fruit of the tree of life and who immediately wanted to share it with his family, the fruits of the doctrine have been delicious to me, and I have also wanted to share it. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. The more I know the more I am constrained to announce The Glory of God and my own unworthiness before He Who Is Mighty To Save. are so advanced in their abilities and gifts from birth, such as music, art, Even Brigham Young said, My traditions were such, he confessed, that when the Vision came first to me, it was directly contrary and opposed to my former education. People that I still feel the spirit about, so I have to pinch myself too, haha. It suggests that we find ourselves in endless cycles of creation, living and dying over and over, learning and progressing, ascending the ladder step-by-step until we eventually "get it right." I was drawn to him because of these gifts that he freely shared with me. Do we all have to get crucified and possibly multiple times? Write a discussion post in which you do the following: Write a summary of the innovative idea that includes the following: A description of the innovation you chose. In the Nauvoo period, Joseph Smith began believed in and secretly taught something akin to reincarnation. Multiple Mortalities Kabbalism, especially the sort in 12th century Spain that produced the Zohar and so forth is a thoroughgoing Platonic conception of Judaism. This understanding of Multiple Probations, has validated and set my soul free of the ignorance. These secret teachings coincided with teachings by Joseph that either explicity stated or implied that previously resurrected beings, essentially from a prior earth, could interact with mortals on this earth. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints It is particularly comforting to realize that I can let go of the worry and anxiety of wayward children who have struggled to stay on the path, that this doctrine provides the hope that there is plenty of time, if they chooseto move forward in their ( or my own) progression. If learning, progression, and the development of the soul is the reason for life, then I don't see how that is possible with just one life time. "And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. My second Temple Marriage was to a man who had spiritual gifts, such as seeing, hearing, and speaking to those beyond the veil. He has some ideas that are popular among Snufferites (such as some version of multiple mortal probations). In the light of the son every person is getting a form, visible to everyone around as they are becoming visible themselves the darkness will fadeas only the light has the power to vanish the darkness. May God bless you too. Any comments would be helpful. Knowing what the Lord has trusted me As long as I don't come back as a cockroach or some kind of insect. I also believe that they want the best of everything for me and that I can become like them. It has been reported by those who knew the first prophet of the church that he was at least at one. Yet the words of Isaiah, which were so plain and simple to Nephi, tend to mystify the Latter-day Saints. And even if a lot of words were taken out of the scriptures, the dynamic is still there If they are returned then effectively this reading is denying they are resurrected at all. I love the doctrine of multiple probations. Agency took on a whole new meaning. The doctrine of multiple probations again increases my understanding of eternal lives. I love that you point our how the Ninth Article of Faith apples to all who earnestly and humbly seek the truth, and not for just a select few. And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place [the telestial kingdom where they now live], to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.". I was cautious at first with excitement, but, put it on a shelf. Another point on this, it is said in the bible that men like Adam, Methuselah, and Enoch were men who became perfect in their generation. There is always hope in Christ. We all have to die to go further. Satan will do everything he can to create doubt and to try and destroy all truth. God bless you. It is headquartered in Manti, Utah, United States, where as of 2004 it maintained a membership of 300 to 500 adherents. Apostle Lorenzo Snow said that "his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith, was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband." He recorded, "But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again." Without a previous life, how could the blind man commit a sin responsible for his handicap, as the man was blind from birth? If mortal probations, then individuals get better opportunity. The main topics are the levels, or ladder, of eternal progression and the end times servant otherwise known as the Davidic Servant. It j u s t makes sense. Nor do I believe that a full understanding of Who I Am, in all the Eternal facets of my Being, qualifies me to take responsibility for doing Fathers work in somehow translating this knowledge to another. Thats a great question, Diane, and an important thing to define. Thank you Ericfor putting what I know to be true into words. There is just too much to experience for once to be enough. JS also gave more info about this path to exaltation, which is that the Holy Ghost, the third member in the Godhead, was going to serve as a Christ. Aloha brother. . Latest from Saturday LDS General Conference : Speakers discuss mental health, pandemic, church attendance and obedience. Known holdings place as #2 top landowner, very close to #1. we would not have experience and could not really gain knowledge or wisdom. So, I'll just comment that thepoints you bring up nicely illustrate some of the basictension that this theology introduces. I believe that the greatest truths will be met with the greatest opposition. Also, I didn't mention it in the OP, but I believe Michael Quinn documents an influential relationship between JS and Alexander Neibaur, who was a convert from Jewish Cabala and who related reincarnation-like Cabala sourced ideas in a couple of Times and Seasons articles during the Nauvoo era. to be better than others or have suggested that even if it were a true What I was looking forward to about eternity was the end of suffering. The Folly of Multiple Mortal Probations - BOOK OF MORMONISM .Sometimes we also borrow the picture of the gate when we speak about the baptism. The purpose was not to claim that it is the doctrine of the Church, as we have no authority in that regard. The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days ( TLC) is a breakaway sect of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). While I do not consider reincarnation to be true, it is clearly an More significantly, JS' King Follett Sermon suggests that, after the resurrection, each heir to Godhood will eventually serve as a Christ in a mortal probation. Ive been following your comments, beliefs and perspectives for some time now. http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/movies/shirley-maclaine-tells-film-set-stories-line-article-1.2545803. That stopped me in my tracks and I didnt know quite how to answer that. You must understand that this is a very poor argument. to do for Him in the past is a great motivator for similarly serving Him in the At one point I had to stop believing any thing he said to me of a spiritual nature and this set me on my path to get my own inspiration of the true doctrine. ("Scriptural Items," F. D. Richards, August 27, 1843 . Eric, thank you so much for this wonderful essay. a personal encounter with Lucifer. BOISE, Idaho On the ninth day of Lori Vallow Daybell's murder trial, her friend, Melanie Gibb, testified about Lori's beliefs on possession, the first time she met Chad Daybell, and more.Lori Vallow Daybell was charged with multiple counts of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Regarding Chad and Lori's "multiple probations" - Reddit As for the sealing question, I certainly believe that sealings are very important. Likewise the use of the term "savior" is more vague than I think you are using it. Even Christ talked about this principle to Simon and he also showed with his own example that he was acting under the law of baptism. Progression for a time and then it is over just doesnt compute for me. 2. According to orthodox Latter-day Saint teachings, this life is a test or probation to see if people will live by God's commandments. Sincere thanks and God Bless Always! One of the most effective teaching tools for me comes Such an endeavor would not be possible without the collaboration and efforts of volunteers, community groups, faith- and . One can know truth from error. 8 of the Most Bizarre Mormon Beliefs - Purpose in Christ Is she the main source? I converted to the church in my early twenties when i received a witness of the book of mormon and of Joseph Smith. I know you and Julie Row are Great tools in the Lords hand in this last days. The Widow's Mite presents, an overview of Church land ownership in the USA. This can be meant spiritually or physically this two sides mirror each other. What did Jesus do? The pattern and symbolism is unmistakable! 9. What surprised me was the fact that it resonated with something in me even as it was a total new doctrine to me. I disagree, believe that most LDS believe as I do, that Eternal Lives means eternal increase and would like to address that in this position paper. Now of course the argument of various forms of platonism in early Mormonism typically comes with it the claim that Joseph ismisreading platonism. Over the past few years it has been my privilege, as well as many who I know, to have naturally and individually come upon the doctrine recently called Multiple Probations. Thank you, I have been pondoring over weather I should share this, by no means am I a visionary like Julie and many others but on December 7th 2018 my Dad passed away at 100 yrs and 4months, my fathers passing opened up a portal to a degree that allowed me to communicate in a small way with those in the Spirit Word, what transpired startled me at first but the experience lasted for weeks. We invite you to share this with all those you know who might benefit from it. Or as Moroni declared, By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things (Moroni 10:5). church. I feel motivated to try harder and do better. It's very hard, if not impossible, to establish causation. Ensign, October 2017, 64-71. 2:43 p.m. John Thomas is conducting cross . Among early Christians and LDS the doctrine of multiple mortal probations was taught.
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